Cinebasterds
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Cinebasterds
CineBasterds #Ep 2 - 'All The Water Just F*cked Off'
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Episode Two | March 2021 - Welcome to Cinebasterds, where three basterds talk about film. This March edition of the podcast focuses on Raya and The Last Dragon, how you can find dragon balls down a random blokes pants and Larry Potter's ginger stungers. Featuring Raya and The Last Dragon, Ocean Waves, Dragonball Z Lord Slug and the masterpiece that is Treasure Planet!!
listener discretion is advised.
Sam Coulduck:Wait until I see the defence lawyer out in the bogs later.
Adam Speakman:Like a sopping wet flannel.
Ross Hartley:Brutal ceaseless acts of violence.
Sam Coulduck:Raya fighting the Nazis in Africa.
Adam Speakman:Larry Potter and his complete collection of lacklustre stungers.
Ross Hartley:Charming, those ginger stungers.
Sam Coulduck:Ginger shtungers.
Adam Speakman:Order, order!
Ross Hartley:Who cares?
Sam Coulduck:And we'll see you for the next murder.
Ross Hartley:Apparently, Denis Villeneuve encourages his actors to fart before they do takes.
Sam Coulduck:Bet he does, dirty bastard.
Adam Speakman:The fucking bastard.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Honestly, it'll help you perform better. Now just fart as loudly as you can into this microphone.
Ross Hartley:Just get it out. Just get it out. I'll be right here watching.
Sam Coulduck:I'll be right here. Half a centimetre away from your arse.
Ross Hartley:Hello and welcome to Cinebasterds where bastards meet to talk about film. I drink your milkshake. I drink it up. I'm Ross Hartley.
Adam Speakman:I'm Tom Holland's more attractive stunt double, Adam Speakman.
Sam Coulduck:And I'm the third blues brother who stayed off the UFO stuff and the hard drugs. My name's Sam. And welcome to Cinebasterds.
Ross Hartley:So bastards. I believe this month is a special animated kind of episode that we'll be focusing on Raya and the Last Dragon. I don't think I said that right. Is it Riah? Or is it Raya?
Sam Coulduck:I don't, does anyone care or know? I mean Disney sure don't. I mean, there's cultural sensitivity, and there was whatever we just watched. So...
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:Yeah. It was pretty fucking great. I'm not gonna lie. Fantastic film. What did you guys think?
Ross Hartley:I think we, or at least, I think I judged it too harshly. And taking a step back from the film. It's not a groundbreaking Disney film by any stretch of the imagination. But you know what, I think things it did right. There weren't really any weak characters. They're all very strong, very proactive. And they sort of push the story forward. It was a very diverse cast with Kelly Marie Tran, who played Raya. And she was also Rose in the last *cough* the film, we don't talk about.
Adam Speakman:Yeah the trilogy that we don't...
Ross Hartley:The trilogy that doesn't exist.
Sam Coulduck:Do you think that was part of the issue with the Star Wars trilogy? Do you think they scrubbed most of her appearance out of the third film and said, listen, if you just take the loss today, we'll sort of maybe put you in an animated film in a few years time?
Ross Hartley:Maybe Yeah.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.
Ross Hartley:Here's your consolation prize.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah. I think Raya and the Last Dragon. Yeah, it was competent, I think. But I think it was completely middle of the road. I don't think it's memorable in any way.
Adam Speakman:No.
Sam Coulduck:Right? And I think it's a sad time when one of the biggest entertainment companies in the world produces stuff like Raya and the lost Dragon.
Adam Speakman:The lost Dragon?
Sam Coulduck:Is it the lost dragon or the last dragon? See I don't even care.
Ross Hartley:The last dragon.
Adam Speakman:I thought it was something like Raya and the lost animation of Disney or something like that.
Sam Coulduck:Raya and the Lost Ark? Yeah.
Adam Speakman:Yeah. Oh, that's brilliant.
Sam Coulduck:That would have been a much better film.
Adam Speakman:That's the title of the podcast.
Ross Hartley:Raya of the lost ark.
Sam Coulduck:Raya fighting the Nazis in Africa. Imagine how good that would have been. Oh man. I don't know what to think about this film really. I think it's a competent kid's film, right? But it doesn't have any of the catchy things that made frozen great. Or memorable or funny. Or I mean...
Adam Speakman:Doesn't have any of the catchy things in frozen?
Sam Coulduck:Yeah, I mean, the things that captured the minds of all the children that watched it and turned it into, you know, this amazing economic and, you know, global success. That led to a lot of people being beaten up at Frozen 2 screenings. I don't know if you knew this?
Adam Speakman:What!?
Ross Hartley:I think I heard about this, but I can't remember what happened.
Sam Coulduck:There was juxtaposition because I think Frozen 2 came out around a similar time as the Joker, where there was a lot of fear regarding the types of people that would come to this sort of...
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:...film and what might occur. But the Joker screenings were completely fine. And in fact, the fights were breaking out between families to go and see Frozen 2 because they oversold the screens and not enough people could get tickets and stuff.
Ross Hartley:Oh my god.
Adam Speakman:Jesus Christ.
Sam Coulduck:So my point being of course that nobody is going to be fighting to go to see...
Ross Hartley:No.
Sam Coulduck:...Raya and the Last Dragon.
Ross Hartley:Especially not since we can all watch it from the relative comfort of our own home.
Sam Coulduck:Absolutely. For a 20 quid premium on top of the subscription service.
Adam Speakman:That is the biggest load of shite. Let's let's put in perspective here, right HBO Max, you know, they're asking, I think might be $12 a month. But anything they release that goes out to the cinemas and HBO Max doesn't cost you anything extra. Whereas, you've got to pay an extra 20 on top of, think it's up to 7.99 now because stars on it.
Sam Coulduck:Wow.
Adam Speakman:It's fucking diabolical that.
Ross Hartley:It's insane. It really soured the experience from the start, didn't it? Because we were like, faced with this enormous price tag for a mediocre kids film that we wouldn't even pay to see in IMAX in a premium seat at real a cinema.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, well, luckily, three of us watched it so we could split the 20 into probably how much the ticket would cost. I think that's probably what made me dislike it more than I probably should have. Bare mind someone can pay 20 on their own and watch it. 20 quid to watch a film on your own.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:I mean, fucking hell that is steep. And, like you said Sam, It was one of the most lacklustre Disney animations I've ever seen. I think the biggest problem in it for me was... I think it looked fine. It looked great. The animation was nice. But it was when the dragons came in and they were just these... So you know how in every Disney movie, you're going to get it, you see it in a lot of Disney movies where they put a creature or some sort of fluffy creature or something that's a sidekick to the main character. And that's usually your, you know, your merchandise selling thing. But not only did they make this massive armadillo thing for Raya, that was her companion wasn't it?
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:And then she would ride him to places. They also made the dragon a sort of gimmicky franchisable thing and essentially, I think all I can sum it up as is like I was watching you know? What's it fucking called? I Fucking blanked. Oh, yeah, my little fucking dragon. My little dragon. Yeah. It's like that. It's like my little pony but with dragons. It just puts you off the style of it. It just doesn't fit with the look of everything. I mean, I get it. It's supposed to be a magical mythical creature. But it was just really boring and smoothed out. And just, yeah, I can only describe it as it was fucking shit. I'll be honest.
Ross Hartley:It was so transparent, wasn't it? We were three minutes into the film or something. So she has this little baby version of Tuk Tuk, which follows her round the temple at the start. And immediately, Sam was like, there's the merchandise. And it was so obvious that's what they were going for. And it was the same when the dragon appeared later on. And you saw the dragons siblings, and they all had different colour schemes and designs. And it felt like, yeah, this is just a bunch of collectibles that Disney are trying to push on little kids.
Sam Coulduck:It'd be very cynical of me to say that, and I think it is very cynical of me to say that, but when it's true, and when you can go online and buy all of your Tuk Tuk and dragon merchandise from this film.
Adam Speakman:I was just gonna say that...
Sam Coulduck:It just enforces the point doesn't it?
Adam Speakman:You looked at the shop didn't you after we finished the movie, and then just all the merchandise was already there. Just as it had premiered.
Sam Coulduck:Just ready to go. You know, ready to be pumped into people's houses and wallets and Yeah.
Adam Speakman:What was it? Plushys, Lego, all little sets...
Sam Coulduck:Costumes...
Adam Speakman:Anything you could imagine. All there, everything we said.
Sam Coulduck:All targeted to the demographics that Disney have calculated for this film. You know, they know what they're going to sell and who they're going to sell it to. And this isn't art I don't think, it's just a vehicle by which things can be sold. I think thats a really sad thing to realise that this film hobbles along with a real boilerplate message about trust at its core, and it really does hobble along with it, it's not really, well how best to say it? It's not really memorable, how they go about the moral of this story. And you do really get the feeling that they're rushing to the end and they're jumping over hurdles and storytelling markers and plot points, just to get to the point where they can end the film and they can potentially flog you some shite knocked together in a factory.
Adam Speakman:It's a classic quick start, isn't it? In the movie where it does like a montage, or a little artsy storytelling of what has happened.
Ross Hartley:Hated that so much.
Adam Speakman:It's like the classic...
Ross Hartley:Here's a massive expedition dump. Expedition? Exposition dump.
Sam Coulduck:That's what you do when...
Adam Speakman:That's what it was like, it was like an expedition through it is that much of a fuckin...
Ross Hartley:Yeah wasn't it.
Adam Speakman:It's just yeah, it's one of those copout things, isn't it putting those at the start?
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:Because it's not long enough to be able to tell you what happened. So it's got to tell you in this really storybooky way. And then I remember at the start, just even after the start of the movie, where you get that intro, it also is very weird how they set up the entire story really. How you go into it and you see her training with a dad and her clan is tasked with protecting this gem. She'd been training...
Ross Hartley:Yeah something like that.
Adam Speakman:...to defend it and then her dad's like, you're ready now to protect this gem. And then all these clans get together. They all want this stone. But her dad is trying to unify them all. And he's trying to unify all the clans so that they all work together.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:But some of them are worse off than others. They don't have maybe the food or the education or something. And she quickly befriends this little girl of another clan leader in another clan. And within five minutes of knowing her, she decides I'm going to show this girl, the gem that I'm tasked to protect. Straight away.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:What does the girl give it like this medallion. And then she's like, oh she gave me a medallion. You know, come and see my gem that is like...
Ross Hartley:Come on best friend.
Sam Coulduck:Come with me. Come and see our secret that could potentially save the world.
Ross Hartley:Yeah init.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:I mean, it was a pretty weak message about trust when your main character is so thick. They will just blindingly trust a girl they've just met enough to show them the one thing that she's been trained all our life by her dad to protect. And that felt like a really cheap way of throwing the whole place into chaos.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, it also plays on an arch enemy. That little girl then becomes Raya's arch enemy. But it's not really. I mean, I know the girl shouldn't be stealing the gem, but it's not really her fault that Raya's decided to just let her in. And also there's no relationship there like you said. They've only met for five minutes. And there's ultimate trust straightaway. And then you sort of think, so, these guys are now arch enemies throughout the entire movie and all I know is that Raya didn't even have a relationship with this girl five minutes before that she showed her the gem, she didn't even know her. So there's no build of archenemy, it's just this fucking girl who she was stupid enough to show a gem. Why were they trying to steal the gem? Because they were sort of?
Sam Coulduck:Wasn't it that the gem was shattered into... Conveniently the gem was shattered into enough shards for every clan to have a piece.
Adam Speakman:You know when it shattered? There was definitely more than six pieces when it shattered...
Sam Coulduck:Possibly.
Adam Speakman:It looked like it shattered into loads of different pieces. And then...
Sam Coulduck:You've got to remember, I barely remember this film.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:This film went in my eyes and at the back of my head. But I do remember, the point I guess of that bit was, the thing that tried to bring them all together was now broken. And because of that, they would then each take a piece to save themselves in a way and you'd have the ultimate breakdown of trust. As...
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:...this big nation made up of these different people groups was now completely divided because the one thing that could keep them together and unify them was now shattered. And each group had a piece of this particular artefact that would keep the evil at bay, like quite literally, would keep you know, these horribly you know? I mean the villains in this film are crap. There's no other way to put it. They're literally like ghosts that suck your soul out.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Called the druug, or the, or the druum or something stupid.
Sam Coulduck:Think it was the druun. I think druug his friend in Russian, which would be quite a scary name for a villian, wouldn't it?
Adam Speakman:I just loved the way that... Was it her dad got an arrow to the knee, didn't he? At the start. They're running away from these... Whatever the fuck they're called. I'm just gonna call it purple blobs. They're running away from the purple blobs and then her dad gets set to stone doesn't he? And she gets sort of like taken away. And I think one of the things I remember was at the end where her Dad obviously, he gets un-stoned.
Ross Hartley:He exhales all the weed he's just injested.
Sam Coulduck:He has a big pizza and sits and watches Pineapple Express and just chills out. Yeah.
Adam Speakman:And then he's sort of cured. He doesn't have an arrow wound to the knee anymore.
Ross Hartley:Oh, yeah.
Sam Coulduck:There's lots of things that could have gone wrong, couldn't there? While he was a statue. Like if someone had defaced him or smashed...
Ross Hartley:Or he could of broken in half, I was thinking that actually. I was like, what if someone's broken in half and then they get redone? Do they just wake up as a screaming torso with no legs?
Adam Speakman:Cut him in half...
Sam Coulduck:Which bit of them is the sentient bit? Are they looking at the top half, as a pair of legs really confused? Or?
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah. Or they're just covered in bird shit. That's another one. They're just absolutely caked or smashed up. Who knows?
Adam Speakman:I think my favourite thing about the movie was the just completely pointless sidekicks throughout the way of the journey. Just the most random sidekicks you ever come across. What was it? Three monkeys and a little baby? One massive guy looked like the Dad from Brave. What was the last one? Some random lad who owned a boat and no one questioned why he owned a boat. And he owned his own restaurant.
Ross Hartley:And his own shrimp business.
Sam Coulduck:You're 8 why do you own a shrimp business?
Adam Speakman:Just like, what the fuck is going on here?
Sam Coulduck:And it was also, because they live in this world where everybody's parents had died. They had to look shocked every time they came across a new person whose family had died because of this disaster.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Which to me always makes me laugh because it's like, if you found a guy in a hut in a completely empty village, and you were like, why are you alone? It's like, does that question need to be asked really? With these monsters turning people to stone everywhere. And you're like, you're alone aren't you? In this fucking frozen wilderness.
Adam Speakman:Yeah. Also, the baby was like two, it was...
Ross Hartley:Yeah, the baby didn't even have words. But was a master thief.
Adam Speakman:Yeah. I mean, I know we're pulling at straws here because it's a fucking animation, but come on.
Ross Hartley:It's a Disney film yeah.
Adam Speakman:Come on. I mean, it's like one of those... Right, so let's talk about, so, Kung Fu Panda. Right?
Sam Coulduck:Here we go.
Adam Speakman:The reason that works is because it's animals and it sets the baseline for it, like you're watching talking animals. So it's like, I can let a lot of things slide with this. But we're watching real people really aren't we? You know? And it's set in quite a, sort of true to style environment. I mean, even down to the food that's being made at the start, it's very authentic. It's fucking really well rendered as well, I'm just gonna say that. Some of the water effects were absolutely fantastic.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, amazing animations.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, they spend all that time on water. And then you make this dogshit fucking dragon. Yeah, they must have spent all the time on the water and not on the dragon. So they've gone, oh shit we haven't made the dragon yet. Fuckin hell.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:We've only got 10 weeks left lads.
Ross Hartley:It's so sad considering the amount of variety you have in Eastern dragon designs. And then you give it the same eyes as Raya does. You give it the same big old almond Disney eyes.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:And you make it into my little pony.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:It was disappointing.
Music:*CBN News intro music*
Sam Coulduck:Hello, and welcome back to CBN News for March 2021. We've got a hotly contested lineup this month, haven't we Adam?
Adam Speakman:Yes we have Sam and we'll go into the UK movie league table, which is based on UK film DVD sales and downloads, respectfully of the week of the 8th March 2021. In 10th position we have the mega sesh itself, Avengers Endgame. The movie is the perfect end to a somewhat bumpy MCU journey. This is what I'd like to say. But as always, Disney has decided to ring this franchise out like a sopping wet flannel. At nine we have the lad who swings his stick about charming ginger stunners. No, it's not the Zohan. It's Harry Potter and his complete collection of lacklustre adventures. I'm a lot like Harry in that I... Sorry...
Ross Hartley:Charming ginger stunners.
Sam Coulduck:Charming ginger stungers, stunners
Ross Hartley:Charming those ginger stungers
Sam Coulduck:Ginger stunchgers
Adam Speakman:Larry Potter and his complete collection of lackluster stungers... I'm a lot like Harry in that I've also been scarred, not by a no nose nonce, but by how this franchise kills off its characters like it's fucking Game of Thrones. The metal lad himself Iron Man is at 8th this week just beaten out by... oh fuck... The metal lad himself. What are you laughing at?
Sam Coulduck:I'm laughing at no nosed nonce. Of course i'm laughing at no nosed nonce!
Adam Speakman:The metal lad himself Iron Man is at 8th this week just beaten out of 7th by Roald Dahl's The Witches. This has been in the league table since I started this segment, and I still have no fucking clue what this is. But good for you Roald Dahl. Berls of. Berls?
Sam Coulduck:He's been dead like 50 years
Adam Speakman:That's why I said it.
Sam Coulduck:I love that.
Adam Speakman:Okay... Birds of Prey has smashed into the top 10 this week by going from 22nd place to 6th. I haven't watched this film personally. But why would I, after watching the diabolically terrible movie that was Suicide Squad. Hopefully James Gunn can channel the meme that is John Cena to save this shitty franchise. Hellraiser Judgement is at 5th, Maze Runner the Death Cure is at 4th, Cosmic Sin at 3rd and The Secret Garden is at 2nd. All these are new additions to the league table. I wish I knew why. But I'll be honest, I've been busy watching the important things. The full series of Robot Chicken on HBO Max. And it's unbelievable Sam! No, no, it really is unbelievable. That people have put this movie in the top spot. Is this a, is this a joke? Are you guys trying to piss me off? Is this a rib? Spider Man far from acceptable is still being purchased, the fuck is this? Well, congrats Tom Holland. You managed to convince millions of people that Spiderman should be Ironman and congrats to everyone, once again, for making me lose faith in humanity and their choices in cinema. Sony Pictures takes the cake this week with Universal Pictures, Altitude Spirit, whatever the fuck that is? 20th Century Fox and Lionsgate making a mockery of their companies by having their new movies being beaten out by Tom Holland's pile of shit. Now we're on to the UK Netflix quick countdown. At 10th we have Snowpiercer season two. 9th Last Chance You Basketball. 8th, Trial by Fire. At 7th, The Bold Type. 6th Paradise PD part three. At 5th Riverdale season five. At 4th The One. At three Behind Her Eyes, which I will say is fucking great. At two, Ginny and Georgia. And at one, Yes Day. That's been March's movie leagues. Sam, back to you.
Sam Coulduck:Thank you very much, Adam. It's good to see that Tom Hollands topping the charts once again. Ross, how's the weather looking for next month?
Ross Hartley:Thank you, Sam. Yes, this is the film forecast showing you what to expect in the coming weeks. April's looking somewhat gaunt this year and almost totally devoid of any big budget high profile films at all. However, it is looking like the season for smaller indie projects and art films as we begin winding up towards the Cannes Film Festival in July. However, I doubt it would be much of a festival and more like a large zoom meeting where everyone wears tuxedos in their living rooms. We can be expecting some precipitation from the Atlantic here coming off films such as Thunder Force with Melissa McCarthy and Octavia Spencer, as superheroes further harassing the great city of New York with the banality of a dying genre. Tom Clancy's Without Remorse starring Michael B. Jordan as John Wick, sorry, John Kelly, who embarks on a tactical one man killing spree after his wife is murdered during a home invasion. And of course, the new Mortal Kombat, which may or may not be making a full appearance on this podcast next month. What happens? Who cares? It's Mortal Kombat. You know that we know that you know, the only reasons you're watching this film are the choreography, the stunning VFX and the brutal ceaseless acts of violence. As this precipitation moves north, the rain is only going to get heavier. You've heard of raining cats and dogs. What about pigs? Well, Gunda is a film made by Victor Kossakovsky, featuring exclusively animal actors. Premiering on April the 16th, and executive produced by actor an eminent animal rights activist Joaquin Phoenix. Gunda is almost a documentary or a meditation on the lives and souls of farm animals. Shot in black and white with beautiful cinematography. It's garnered the praise of many critics, including fellow director Paul Thomas Anderson. I'm intrigued by this film, to say the least, and I really hope it turns out to be more than just B roll for Peters TV campaigns and establishing shots of shit filled pigsties. So... So as that rain dissipates the clouds should part and on Friday the 30th, both of these arthouse gems will shine their beneficence light upon this forgettable tepid April. About Endlessness is a film directed by iconic Swedish filmmaker Roy Anderson, depicting vignettes of different people across time, in a celebration of life and the infinity of human existence, or something like that. All captured through his unforgettable, isometric cinematography, desaturated colour palettes and brilliant acting, ranging all the way from heartbreakingly miserable to laughably awkward. In the Earth is a quarantine thriller made by chad English folk horror director Ben Wheatley. Set in a world ravaged by a deadly pandemic, we follow a scientist in the park scouts in the forest on a routine equipment run that turns into a horrible journey. Much like Wheatley's previous film, A Field in England, I literally cannot wait to watch Reece Shearsmith absolutely lose his shit in a random forest. That's all the weather on film forecast from me Ross Hartley, back to you in the studio Sam.
Sam Coulduck:Thank you very much Ross. Now time for the top headlines of this month. Avatar reclaims title of highest grossing film from Avengers Endgame 12 years after first release. You heard me correctly, Avatar has topped the box office charts over a decade after its release. Dusting Avengers Endgame's record with a heady total gross of 2.8 billion US dollars. This is due in part to a re-release in China, where the film has made just enough money for it to reclaim the top spot. If Avatar was a country, it would be the 164th largest country in the world by GDP, surpassing the GDP of the Kingdom of Bhutan. Ironically, a heavily forested nation where people have sex with nature. There's only 194 countries on this list by the IMF, but that should just underline how much fucking money Avatar has made. James Cameron wasn't available to comment on this as he was too busy being a cunt somewhere else. I'm joking of course, he was on that hot mic like a fly on wet shite. He said, we've got climate change, we've got deforestation. Our relationship with nature is more at risk than it ever has been. And Avatar is about those things. But it's also a timeless film, he said. Wise words. When I see a ripoff of Dances with Wolves with deviant art Smurfs, I too think of timeless cinema. Robert Downey Jr. and Anne Hathaway lead worst acting nominations at the Razzies 2021. The Golden Raspberry Awards highlight the worst performances in cinema over the past year, with aim taken in the direction of RDJ for his role in the story turned international war crime, Dolittle. And Anne Hathaway for really hamming it up in the remake adaption of Roald Dahl's famous anti semitic story, The Witches. It seems do little will sweet sweet thdsdsdsds. Too many S's.
Ross Hartley:Seems Dolittle will charm the ginger stungers.
Sam Coulduck:It's not even that funny.
Adam Speakman:Oh for fuck sake.
Sam Coulduck:It's not even that good. Right hang on. It seems Dolittle will sweep the Razzies this year being nominated for worst picture, worst actor, worst screen combo, worst director and worst screenplay. You could almost say Dolittle, did little to win over audiences worldwide. That's all we've got time for this month on CBN News. Please join us next time.
Ross Hartley:It's time for that game where you have to describe a film in as few words as possible. And also the words can only be one syllable long and the other person has to guess what the name of the film is to win otherwise they lose and they have to do something else. Oh, and that's a bad miss.
Sam Coulduck:Oh it's this game again. Lovely.
Ross Hartley:Yes, of course it is. We have our contestants Sam and Adam with us today as usual. Are we ready to play?
Adam Speakman:I am.
Sam Coulduck:We are bready to play.
Ross Hartley:Sam are you comfortable with starting?
Sam Coulduck:I am indeed.
Ross Hartley:You have a minute to describe as many films as possible until I go URRRRH. Three, two, one, GO.
Sam Coulduck:Okay, man with red and black suit.
Adam Speakman:Ironman?
Sam Coulduck:Can't die.
Ross Hartley:Dennis the Menace?
Sam Coulduck:No.
Adam Speakman:Can't die? Oh, Superman?
Sam Coulduck:Man with black and red suit can't die, has smart mouth.
Adam Speakman:Black and red suit? Man with black and red suit? Who has a black and red suit?
Sam Coulduck:Black and red suit...
Adam Speakman:DEADPOOL!?
Sam Coulduck:Deadpool Yeah. Erm.. Big... Big mad Liz?
Adam Speakman:Godzilla?
Sam Coulduck:YEAH! Got it in one!
Ross Hartley:Five seconds left!
Sam Coulduck:Man with hammer long name.
Adam Speakman:Hammer is two syllables.
Ross Hartley:Thor?
Sam Coulduck:Yes. Ah fuck it!
Music:*Time up buzzer*
Sam Coulduck:Shite.
Adam Speakman:Shite!
Ross Hartley:Well Sam at the end of that round of It's time for that game. I believe you have two points.
Sam Coulduck:Red and black suit!! Come on!!
Ross Hartley:Very well done indeed. Adam, are you ready for your round?
Adam Speakman:I'm ready.
Ross Hartley:You have a minute to describe as many films as possible until I go URHHH.
Adam Speakman:Okay.
Ross Hartley:Three, two, one, GO.
Adam Speakman:Young Han.
Sam Coulduck:Solo.
Adam Speakman:Yep... Shit clown.
Sam Coulduck:IT?
Adam Speakman:Shit clown.
Sam Coulduck:Shit clown?
Adam Speakman:Shit clown. Erm...
Ross Hartley:Piers Morgan?
Sam Coulduck:Eyy... Sweaty clown.
Adam Speakman:Dead shot, shit clown.
Ross Hartley:Suicide Squad?
Adam Speakman:Yep... God with long hair.
Ross Hartley:Thor?
Adam Speakman:Yep. Oh shit. Erm... Erm...
Ross Hartley:URHHH!! Oh, that's out of time Adam. At the end of that round of it's time for that game. Adam walks away with a mighty three points.
Adam Speakman:Tasty.
Sam Coulduck:Stolen.
Ross Hartley:Fantasic.
Adam Speakman:Those ginger stungers.
Ross Hartley:Those ginger stungers. And now it's time for my go of it's time for that game. I have a minute timer until I go...
Adam Speakman:You know what happened last time... You lost!
Sam Coulduck:To do whatever he fucking wants.
Ross Hartley:Well. I'm not going to lose this time at my own game.
Sam Coulduck:Watch it.
Ross Hartley:I am ready for this.
Sam Coulduck:Big words. Let's go.
Ross Hartley:I'm going to start the timer. Three, two, one, Go!
Adam Speakman:Tenet?
Ross Hartley:Towns...
Sam Coulduck:The Lighthouse?
Ross Hartley:No.
Adam Speakman:Go on.
Ross Hartley:Towns on wheels.
Adam Speakman:Oh fuck!?
Sam Coulduck:Mortal Engines?
Ross Hartley:Yeah. Errrr.... Errrr... Errrr
Sam Coulduck:Green Mile?
Ross Hartley:Errr... Yes, no it's not. Erm...
Adam Speakman:You know when you asked us if we had our films prepared?
Ross Hartley:Yep. I do not... Mob men.
Adam Speakman:5 seconds left!
Ross Hartley:Wow, oh fuck sake. No i've not, i've got 10 seconds left!
Adam Speakman:Come on!
Ross Hartley:You've put me off so much!
Music:*Time up buzzer*
Ross Hartley:Well, I'm out of time...I got 1 point, and that is good enough for me.
Sam Coulduck:You know when you said you had your films prepared?
Ross Hartley:So at the end of its time for that game, Adam walks away at first place with a mighty three points. Sam comes in at second with two points.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:And myself, humbly making waves...
Sam Coulduck:He could of lied and got more points, but he didn't. He just came in at 1.
Ross Hartley:So, unfortunately, that didn't go quite as planned. But you know, it's about the little victories. It's about the little things.
Sam Coulduck:It's not, it's really not.
Adam Speakman:I love the way you said you won't lose this time.
Ross Hartley:That's been, It's time for that game where you have to describe a film in as few words as possible. And also the words can only be one syllable long and the other person has to guess what the name of the film is to win otherwise they lose and they have to do something else.
Adam Speakman:Shit out.
Ross Hartley:Thank you very much. Goodnight.
Sam Coulduck:It's really sad as well, because I mean, the direct comparison to Kung Fu Panda is interesting, because that was under the helm of Jeffrey Katzenberg, I believe...
Adam Speakman:Oh right.
Sam Coulduck:...who was the CEO of DreamWorks, and he was the CEO of Disney during the Disney Renaissance, where they made Aladdin, all of the......I think it started with Tarzan and went all the way up to Mulan.
Ross Hartley:90s.
Adam Speakman:Tarzan?
Sam Coulduck:Or like the Little Mermaid, I think, I can't remember off the top my head. But there is some direction there that is missing in modern Disney, I believe. I think modern Disney films are just retreading past glories and experiences that they think they can work. As you say the character designs are just frozen character designs over and over again, with no real thought about why they're doing what they do. If you compare the character designs in Raya, to the character designs in Kung Fu Panda, it's insane. The difference that you have between Shifu, Oogway, Po and Tai Lung, just as four complete examples. They have totally different shapes. They have totally different textures. They look differently, their eyes look different. They express things differently, different sizes. Whereas in this film, you have sort of regular sized human beings with a big human being a very small child and then a dragon. And that's it.
Ross Hartley:Yeah. Yeah, and Kung Fu Panda's characters all have their own motivations, they all have their own nuances, which makes it easy to separate them into their own stories and their own struggles. And there was just none of that with Raya because they're all sort of vaguely after the same thing, I guess. They were all just willing to hop on the gravy train with Raya and the dragon and do whatever they said. The most interesting people in the film were Raya, Sisu and Namaari. And I'm sure Namaari had less lines than any of the companions in the main party.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:It was like, why are we wasting our time with these with these people? Even if they do all have special unique skills, which would help them out in very specific situations. But apart from that, they're all dead weight really. Could have just done the whole thing with Raya and Sisu.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:And that was it because they show that Sisu can swim really well because she's a water dragon. So why do they need a shrimp boy with a boat to take them to the other village when she could've just got on Sisu's back and they would have been there in like, two minutes.
Sam Coulduck:It's Eagles to Mordor thing, isn't it, over and over again. And this is a bigger point actually that I didn't really understand why they did this. The film went a very clandestine direction because they chose to hide Sisu, and her identity as a dragon.
Ross Hartley:Yes.
Sam Coulduck:In a world that was saved by dragons.
Ross Hartley:Yes.
Sam Coulduck:That was now under attack from this creature that would kill anybody. There was no military might that could stop it. Only the dragons.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Now this film would have been very different if Sisu had just come out and said, I am a dragon. I can stop all of this from happening again. If you just cooperate we can get this wrapped in like half a day.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:The thing behind it was, was it not? The fight was just a who is going to save the world first, sort of thing. I want to save the world so I want the gem pieces. You can't save the world. it's got to be us. And they end up just wrecking everything in the process, like at the start when the gem gets smashed because someone wants to bloody have the gem and be the main protector of it. And then down to Raya being the one. That she wants to put the gems together and she needs their gem. And she decides really stupidly to do all these just moronic things. And then at the end, the way she saves the world is, apparently the dragons weren't necessary at all. They can all just trust in each other and this gem will work. I mean, okay, we needed the dragons to make the gem in the first place, but it's all a bit of a fucking mess.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, not to rebuild it apparently. All it all it took was...
Sam Coulduck:Anybody.
Ross Hartley:Two people trusting each other? Well, can't remember what they do, they all sort of commit suicide via purple blob and turn to stone. And just let Namaari figure it out for herself. And it was meant to be the emotional high point of the film, but I really just felt nothing when it happened. And then yeah, like you said, the dragons weren't even weren't even needed for this.
Adam Speakman:Oh, Sisu wasn't even needed.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, the film could have just been called Raya.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Raya and the dragons that will return in the third act of this film.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:Raya and the three monkeys, one baby, one big bastard and a shrimp boy.
Sam Coulduck:Shrimp connoisseur.
Ross Hartley:What annoyed me even more was that they brought Sisu back after she'd died, air quotes. And that could have been really powerful as well. If Sisu's death was permanent, and her legacy was finally getting these humans to trust each other enough to keep these relationships going. And instead, they brought her back, Dragon Jesus style, and it was like, oh, everything's fine. It's Disney. Everything's fine.
Sam Coulduck:Everything has to be fine. Yeah.
Adam Speakman:Not only does Sisu come back, but the entire dragon population.
Ross Hartley:Yeah?!
Adam Speakman:Bursts back into existence again. So really their sacrifices in the end. What was the fucking point?
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:It's fucking funny. I remember when we came to the end of it. And I know what you said Ross. We all had a lot more harsher things to say. Probably.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:I agree with that. But I mean, this film deserves it. And I remember we were reading some people's reviews on rotten tomatoes, and IMDb and stuff. And some people were saying this movie was an instant Disney classic. They've done it again. Right, I know Frozen became this massive thing. But it was nothing special. It really wasn't anything special. And when you're comparing the fact that this film is supposed to ride off the back of Frozen. And it's supposed to create a new Disney film and I would be assuming Disney Princess in a way? Are we saying?
Ross Hartley:Yeah, yeah.
Sam Coulduck:It's part of that model, isn't it?
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Create a new, yeah.
Adam Speakman:This? I mean, I remember watching Frozen and I couldn't get through half of it. I'll be honest. But it's not obviously targeted at me. I would assume.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, I think that's the bottom line really is the three of us are the furthest away from the intended demographic. So, we just need to be aware of our own byesies. But even so I think you can definitely judge a film on its own merit outside of who it's intended to be for. Because you can have incredible children's films, like the Ghibli films that everyone loves. That all ages can appreciate. But I just don't think anyone outside of single digits in age is going to get anything out of this.
Adam Speakman:Well, I think the problem with it was like I say, Frozen, you can definitely tell that's not your demographic. I think Frozen, the way it was advertised, the way it is essentially a musical as well, and it is targeted at a younger generation. But with this film when it was advertised. I think it was more advertised like it was for every sort of person, especially considering the style of it. I mean, we said how realistic things looked and how well they did at creating the aesthetic that they were going for. I was enjoying it to some extent, before the dragon came out and I was like, oh, it's this kind of movie. I could have got past the dragon. Because there was some things that I enjoyed about it. But I think it just did turn into that my little pony vibe, when the style of how the dragon talked. It was very cartoony, and it was very much playing the, you know, sort of clueless role.
Ross Hartley:Clueless sidekick.
Adam Speakman:It just went from feeling like it could have been a movie for everyone to this movie that just was a kid's, by the end of it. And I know, we're talking about a fucking Disney movie here. But, you know, there's loads of Disney movies. I can watch like Tarzan from back in the day and that's amazing. You know, it's made for everyone.
Ross Hartley:Fantastic.
Adam Speakman:Like you said they've got a formula now. Frozen did so well that they're deciding to keep with the style of the animation, and also the feel of it all. It's still very kid, orientated now. Maybe that's because they feel like they can only sell this stuff to kids now. But you look at Pixar and Pixar does so good at doing movies for kids and adults at the same time.
Ross Hartley:Yeah. I know what you mean. The formula, you can see from a mile away, and it's so predictable. And all the main characters in these films are sort of becoming homogenised, into this ideal person, which they know will sell the most merchandise and will be the most quotable and as many people will enjoy as possible. And that's what Sisu felt like, it didn't feel like her character was particularly developed outside of a sort of inner shame.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Because she couldn't save the world even though she did. It was weird. And it was really immersion breaking. Like, I love Aquafina who voiced the Dragon, she's great. And her own show is great. But it was really cringe in some points when you can see them trying to feed this sort of quirky, late millennial humour into the film. Like when she said, oh get a load of Captain pop and lock over there. Or when they had that whole scene when she was buying things in this town on credit. And it was like, what the? Why would these people know about credit?
Sam Coulduck:In fairness it is a form of trust, which is what the film I guess is?
Ross Hartley:Ah yes, that's a form of trust... Themes. Themeing.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah. Did Raya really learn anything over the course of this film?
Adam Speakman:She learnt trust.
Ross Hartley:How to trust people?
Adam Speakman:But she's still putting the trust in people she only met the other day.
Ross Hartley:Yeah. Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah?
Adam Speakman:You know what I mean?
Ross Hartley:She met a shrimp boy, a baby and a big man who tied her up. She's like, I trust all of you immediately. Because it's convenient to the plot.
Sam Coulduck:Some axe wielding maniac who lives alone in the woods.
Ross Hartley:Yeah!
Sam Coulduck:She's like, ah you should come with me. Rather than Get away from me. Yeah.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:This film. Odd.
Adam Speakman:I love the connection they made when Sisu died and then the water dried up. And it took the big bastard... Because everyone was asking, why is the water going? And this big bastard just goes, maybe it's because the last of the dragons has been killed. So all the water will now leave. And you're just like... Yep, that makes sense. You've hit the nail on the head there lad.
Sam Coulduck:That's obvious if you've watched any of the fucking film.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:The water levels are pretty high I thought for one dragon being left and if that one dragon died, then all the water would be gone.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, all the water in the world Adam!
Sam Coulduck:All the water.
Ross Hartley:Can you imagine like people on the other side of that planet who had no idea these dragons existed and all the water just fucked off. And they're like, what is happening? I'm just fishing here!
Sam Coulduck:Well, if all the water went, they themselves would shrivel up and die. Because they are, you know, 70% water themselves.
Ross Hartley:So yeah all the water in the world.
Sam Coulduck:That'd be a very scary thing wouldn't it?
Ross Hartley:I'd love that if Disney just completely went batshit and did that in one of their films.
Sam Coulduck:Arh, some like horrible like H.R. Giger imagery.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Of these people just like crunching and... ah. Yeah, be horrible.
Ross Hartley:I would watch that.
Sam Coulduck:The film would end there though and it'd be quite abrupt. I'd be the guy going, because the last Dragon has died, everybody's dying. And they'd all just sort of, you know, crumple up like a packet of crisps in the microwave, and it wouldn't be very fun.
Adam Speakman:Maybe that's what Disney should do. Maybe with every Disney film they release, they have to release a rated R version. They redo it and they can redo the style of dragons into like the Dragon Ball Z dragon. And the style of everything and yeah. And then when Sisu dies, instead of getting shot by the crossbow, it will be this really gruesome trident or something.
Sam Coulduck:It just plunges into the stomach and out the back.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:And she grips her stomach as intestines are coming out.
Ross Hartley:The crossbow bolt goes through her eye and explodes out the back of her head.
Adam Speakman:And then yeah, when she hits the water at the end. It's just a massive explosion for no reason.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Raya and the Last Dragon, directed by Michael Bay.
Adam Speakman:And then yeah, then the water goes out of everything. And by everything, it means everything.
Sam Coulduck:Literally everything. All life on that planet dies. It just crunches up and becomes all crusty and horrible. Yeah.
Adam Speakman:It's time for win it or bin it! This is the part of the podcast where we ask, is this movie a win? Or is it going in the fucking bin? With the podcast this episode focused on animation. We went into the randomizer and randomised three animated movies. Contestant one on my left Samuel Coulduck...
Sam Coulduck:Ay up.
Adam Speakman:Contestant two on my right, Ross Vladimir Hartley...
Ross Hartley:Legalise it.
Adam Speakman:So these two contestants have watched the three movies in question. Now you're both aware of the rules. When I ask you what you think about this movie, you're going to give me one sentence. And if it's a win, or if it's going in the bin. We start off this episode with Ocean Waves. I'm going to contestant number two Ross Hartley. What do you have to say about this movie?
Ross Hartley:It's a Studio Ghibli film. It's a summer High School flick. It's a bit weird. It gave me some complicated feelings. But overall, I think I'll have to give it a win.
Adam Speakman:And contested one, Sam, what do you think of this movie?
Sam Coulduck:This is easily the worst Studio Ghibli film ever made. I can see why people barely fucking remember it. Because to be honest, it just fucking doesn't register on anyone's radar. This is going in the bin.
Adam Speakman:We've got a disagreement boys. It's time for film court.
Music:*Gavel sound*
Adam Speakman:Order in the courtroom, order in the courtroom.
Ross Hartley:Fucking hell I've got to defend this film.
Adam Speakman:Keep that in!
Sam Coulduck:Sorry that was amazing. Just the truth that came out of you there. Fucking hell i've got to defend this film.
Adam Speakman:Okay. Prosecutor, can you please make your opening statement?
Sam Coulduck:Well, my honour, I think I should detail...
Adam Speakman:My honour!
Ross Hartley:Well Dad.
Sam Coulduck:Alright big man. This is how we are gonna do things. Well, your honour my opening statement will concern the fact that Ocean Waves was barely knocked together by Studio Ghibli. They employed the B team to make this production. And it didn't meet the standards of Miyazaki. And I think it's forgotten by history for a good reason. I think this film was rushed, under produced and generally didn't hit the mark for where it wanted to be seen.
Adam Speakman:Thank you for your opening statement. Will defence please rise and make his opening statement?
Ross Hartley:Your honour, yes, this film was, as my learned colleague said, made by Studio Ghibli's youngest staff on a very tight budget. And was a straight to TV film based on a book. But it was an exercise given to the youngest members of the Ghibli team to see if they could deliver a film that was important to them, that showcased their talents. And I think they did that. The animation is very classic Ghibli. It's very smooth. The story and the relationships are a bit tenuous. But I think this is a great meditation on the fucking what's the word? On the erm...
Sam Coulduck:Your Honour, please press him. He's lost his mind.
Ross Hartley:Shut the fuck up! Don't...
Adam Speakman:Yeah. Oh, yeah, prosecution sustained. You're going nowhere right now. It was just an opening statement. I don't know why you're going on with yourself. Please sit down defence. Prosecution could you please stand? And I want you to tell us why you really think that this movie is going in the bin. I want you to convince me, I want to convince the jury. You have the floor.
Sam Coulduck:Thank you very much Your Honour. As part of my opening statement, I mentioned that this was created by the B team at Studio Ghibli and I think that is indicative of what they expected this film to do. I think Studio Ghibli sent this film out to die for perhaps political reasons in the office. We can't speculate on those things because we don't know them as fact. However, what we do know is it produced a very rushed film in a very short format, which struggled to hit its marks. I must say for the aspect of fairness that I did enjoy the story in parts and its composition and its animation is very lovely to look at. But I really did think it missed the mark. And because of that was a worse film overall, and therefore deserves to go in the bin.
Adam Speakman:Okay, anything from the defence?
Ross Hartley:Yes, I have. I have something saying in defence of this film, Your Honour. I'd just like to say that, despite it's flaws, it's still a very charming, nostalgic look at the carefree days of early adulthood. Obviously, it's hard to compete against the fantastical classics like Kiki's Delivery Service, Totoro and Porko Roso. But I think ultimately, it's it still retains the charm and the magic of those classic Ghibli films. And I think it deserves the win. I think it deserves a second chance. The Defence rests.
Adam Speakman:A very polite court today.
Sam Coulduck:Wait until I see the defence lawyer out in the bogs later. I'll have a...
Adam Speakman:ORDER...
Music:*Gavel sound*
Adam Speakman:ORDER! That was an open threat from the prosecution there. Please write that down. Okay well...
Sam Coulduck:Who are you saying that to? There's only three of us in the room.
Adam Speakman:There's loads of us, there's a full jury to your right if you...
Sam Coulduck:They're fucking quiet all the way through...
Adam Speakman:ORDER!
Music:*Gavel sound*
Adam Speakman:ORDER! Whos courtroom is this? It's my courtroom, not yours.
Ross Hartley:Trisha's taking shorthand over there.
Sam Coulduck:Trish?
Adam Speakman:I've taken both your defence and prosecution into account. And I will agree that this movie did drag, it erm... Hang on, I'll make it more dramatic because I'm just...
Ross Hartley:Objection. Your honour you're going...
Sam Coulduck:You're talking shit! Objection! He's fucking, he doesn't know what he's talking about!
Adam Speakman:Objection sustained. The judge is talking shit! Yeah, so as you both know, I've watched this movie. And I will agree with some points from the prosecution, it is slow. It does drag. The animation is quite nice. I do like the look of it. But I'll also say is quite boring in sections. And it's just a very Draggy sort of movie. It's weird. But I do take on the defense's points. It is a nice animation, it's quite wholesome. It brings up some points of high school and that sort of part of your life in general. It's sort of quite quaint and also I do admire it a little bit as well. But I have to also take into consideration my own view when I stopped watching the movie when it ended. And I'll be honest, it was just me sat there going. Well. It was all right. But what the fuck have I just watched. So it's a very difficult decision. It is a difficult one. So after some consideration I do take in more of the defense's notes than the prosecution.
Ross Hartley:Thank you your honour.
Sam Coulduck:Ah what a load of shite.
Adam Speakman:ORDER!
Music:*Gavel sound*
Ross Hartley:Your honour my colleague is being a ragamuffin, he should be removed.
Sam Coulduck:Your colleague knows what a true Ghibli film looks like.
Adam Speakman:You know what? I take the defense's points into note and I rule that this movie is a win and please would you remove...
Ross Hartley:YES!
Adam Speakman:Please would you remove Samuel Coulduck from the court please he's been causing alot of stir.
Ross Hartley:Piss off!
Sam Coulduck:We're not done yet!
Adam Speakman:He's sentenced to two years in federal prison.
Sam Coulduck:We've got two more films you're honour.
Adam Speakman:For his hate of...
Sam Coulduck:Put your butties away. We've got two more films. It's not lunch until we finish them.
Adam Speakman:He's right. We'll keep him here until the last two cases have been discussed. This movie will be awarded the budget it so deserves and the A team of Studio Ghibli to be able to produce this to a higher standard and remaster it for today.
Ross Hartley:Yes!
Adam Speakman:Thank you. This court is adjourned. And we'll see you for the next movie.
Sam Coulduck:And we'll see you for the next murder.
Adam Speakman:So movie number two, Dragonball Z Lord slug. We'll go to contestant number one first, Sam, what do you think about this?
Sam Coulduck:Um, this is a difficult one because I don't think I could get myself in a state where I could enjoy the sort of film. So by proxy, it's gonna have to go in the bin.
Adam Speakman:In the fucking bin. Contestant number two, Ross, is it a win isn't going in the bin?
Ross Hartley:This was a very specific kind of film that, like my colleague mentioned, it'd be very hard to get into the headspace to enjoy something like this off the bat. It's going in the bin for me.
Adam Speakman:We have an agreement, this movie is going in the fucking bin. So gentlemen, if we'd like to have a general chat, what is it that you thought was deserving of this film going in the bin?
Sam Coulduck:It's just fucking ridiculous. It's just mental! It's like an action man advert. It's like, it's just, ohhhh, everything about it, nobody went, are we doing the right thing here if we stick disturbed music over the top of it?
Adam Speakman:That was the main sell point in the trailer...
Sam Coulduck:Just mental, yeah.
Adam Speakman:...it was like, with songs featuring Deftones and Disturbed. That was the selling point of the trailer.
Ross Hartley:It felt like just an extended Dragonball Z episode to be honest. So maybe I can see someone who is a fan getting into that film. But otherwise, I feel like it just could have existed in a normal Dragonball Z series. Most of it was just a lot of weak punches. It was charming in some ways, like all the characters were very hammerly voiced and it was funny and it had that distinct 90s vibe and soundtrack. But it just felt really phoned in and stupid at some points. Like, so Lord slug is a Namek but he's actually a super Namek who can grow to the size of a building.
Adam Speakman:He's a Megazord.
Ross Hartley:Yeah a Megazord. And what is a super Namek's weakness? The whistling of a little boy. And that's what brings him down.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Instead of the almighty Superman power of Goku and Piccolo combined.
Adam Speakman:I like the way Piccolo rips his ears out but he doesn't actually rip his ears out because he's still got the holes for his ears.
Ross Hartley:Yeah. Like you've just inconvenienced yourself there Piccolo.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah, you haven't done enough damage there.
Adam Speakman:And then, would you like to discuss how they found all the dragon balls? You know at the start when Lord slug finds all the dragon balls to talk to the dragon?
Ross Hartley:He finds all the dragon balls? I must have fucking missed that bit.
Sam Coulduck:Was that the bit when they're like his henchmen are like searching around?
Adam Speakman:Yeah they search and find it in like nests.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah, they find them in like a fucking bush, don't they? Just laying there. Like, nobody's gonna walk home and be like, that's weird, there's a fucking magical artefact that lets me talk to a dragon that can grant me anything. They just go, ah you know, it's just in a bush.
Adam Speakman:When they're searching. They're like picking these dragon balls out of nests. Picking them out of a guy's pocket, I think. Circus pants.
Ross Hartley:So stupid.
Sam Coulduck:You see, that's the one redeeming thing about this right, is that it doesn't take itself that seriously.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah, I think that's the bit I like the most about it. Is that it is just absolutely insanely silly in places. But I think that's why it's, you know. I mean, it doesn't redeem it in my eyes, because it's just power fantasy, but without any meaning or value to it. It's like, what if aliens came down from space, and we had to beat them up?
Ross Hartley:And we punched them.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah, there's nothing more to it than that.
Adam Speakman:I think the best parts are when there were scenes where three people were in a observatory when this big asteroid was going to hit.
Ross Hartley:Yes.
Adam Speakman:It was in this really silent echoey observatory and then the music that was over it. You could hear the singing in the music while they were trying to have a pretty serious discussion. I can't remember what song it was. But like you were saying Ross, it might have been disturbed with, Come on get down with the sickness in the background. While these people are trying to talk about an asteroid hitting.
Ross Hartley:Yeah it was funny. What a choice to put a very wordy song underneath someone explaining how a super Namek's ears work.
Adam Speakman:I don't get how Goku woke up two days later compared to everyone else.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah, that confused me as well.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:I just, I chalked it up to just not wanting to know. I thought it and I went you know what? I don't think that's the point.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, I do think this movie does a great job in making you realise what you're in store for because straightaway, you see Goku's son with a fucking flying dragon dancing. With this dragon having bells on it around... Is it Piccolo they're around?
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:That drags as well. It goes on for like five minutes. It felt like five minutes. And I just sat there like, what the fuck is going on?
Ross Hartley:They're just floating in midair.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:And Piccolo's like, stop, STOP!
Adam Speakman:Sweating.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:It's definitely something you watch under the influence. Whatever that may be. A double Shandy Bass. Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Yeah. I feel like this film is reserved for either being under the influence. Or if you're doing a massive run of Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z in chronological order. And Lord slug is one of the films in that order. Like the Star Wars marathon or Lord of the Rings marathon. But otherwise, why the fuck would you watch this by itself? It adds nothing. It does nothing. It's just an hour and a bit of nothing.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah. An hour and a bit of nothing. I like that.
Adam Speakman:An hour and a bit of nothing. Great way to sum up this movie. And yes, this is going in the fucking bin. And finally, we're talking about Treasure Planet. What do you have to say about this Ross?
Ross Hartley:I fucking love Treasure Planet. It's a great updated version of Treasure Island. It's got amazing design. The style is unique. The dialogue is great. It's a win from me.
Adam Speakman:Sam, is it a win? Or is it going in the bin?
Sam Coulduck:I can only echo the sentiments of Ross. This has been a very important film in my early childhood. And yeah, it is an absolute win.
Adam Speakman:Treasure plan is a win. And may I just add, this movie is fucking brilliant. Can we discuss this movie please?
Sam Coulduck:We can discuss this movie.
Ross Hartley:It's Fucking good!
Adam Speakman:It is, it's faultless. It's faultless. It's fucking beautiful.
Sam Coulduck:It's uh...
Ross Hartley:I think I appreciate it more now...
Adam Speakman:Yeah!
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:...when I watched it yesterday than I did when I was younger. I can't really describe it. But it's so well made. It's such an amazing mash of cyberpunk, steampunk tech and 18th century maritime culture. How good is that idea?
Sam Coulduck:It's so great.
Ross Hartley:John Silver. Captain Amelia. Dr. Doppler are some of the greatest characters of 2000s Disney animation. Jim is also amazing.
Adam Speakman:I love Jim. Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:And it reminds you of how fantastic Disney films were. And it's such a shame this film had such a bad reception. Because apparently Disney purposefully sabotaged it. Because they wanted to move away from traditional animation into more 3d animated stuff.
Adam Speakman:I'll tell you what, a good way of showing that this movie is timeless is, I watched it with my girlfriend and she'd never seen this before. And when she was watching she said, this looks fucking incredible, it looks so good. And then I was like, It's from 2002. And then she was fucking stunned. It's better than so many things that are coming out today. And it just holds up. It holds up so well. But yeah, this style of animation. Same with Atlantis, Sinbad and this. I honestly believe that this was the peak. It's better than some of the stuff coming out today. It's such a good art style and it works so well. I can never understand why they ever stopped doing stuff like this. It is a travesty in my eyes.
Sam Coulduck:It's pretty crazy, isn't it. In terms of Disney sending it out to die. This was a summer blockbuster film, that I think came out in November of 2002. And it was put up against the first Harry Potter film on opening weekend.
Ross Hartley:Oh shit!
Sam Coulduck:Who the fuck would have thought that was a good idea if they didn't want to kill this film outright?
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:To put it up against Harry Potter, at the time, the biggest children's book franchise ever.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Yeah init.
Sam Coulduck:The film adaption. Yeah, I think it's horrendous that they did that.
Ross Hartley:They fucked that up.
Sam Coulduck:And on top of that, the two directors that worked on this film, this was their passion project. That they wanted to make since the early 90s. And they churned out hit after hit for Disney, including Aladdin and Mulan. Just like that golden age from 91 onwards. And Disney finally relented and allowed them to make this film to only just kill it at the box office. After all that work had been put on it. When all that money had been spent. And all the technology had been used to its full potential.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, such a shame.
Sam Coulduck:Huge waste.
Adam Speakman:Never have they changed Disney. They're still the fucking money hungry, useless fucking company that they are.
Ross Hartley:I think it shows how persevering this film is when it has such a passionate fan base. Nearly 20 years later.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Everyone I know who's seen Treasure Planet. It's one of their favourite Disney films. And it's definitely, I wouldn't say underrated. But it has the most appropriate amount of praise for how, air quote, unpopular it was.
Adam Speakman:I'd go as far to say that this is my favourite Disney movie of all time.
Ross Hartley:It's up there.
Sam Coulduck:Definitely, it's up there.
Adam Speakman:It's so good at character development as well. It's so good. The fact that one minute you're with Jim and all wary about Cyborg and stuff. And then next minute you're loving the fact that this Cyborg has become a father figure to him. And then all the betrayal stuff and everything that goes on in this movie. If you haven't watched it, watch this fucking movie. It'll change the way you look at Disney films that are coming out today I think. It'll really make you think, what the fuck is going wrong?
Sam Coulduck:And it really sticks to its guns and delivers on what it sets out to do. This is an emotional journey that Jim goes on to find himself. I had a very similar experience in real life with the loss of my own father when I was younger. And this film I saw just before that had happened. And when I returned to watch it, it took on this whole new thing for me. It pieced together parts of my life that had happened since the early 2000s. And really filled in the gaps in my own head in quite an amazing way. And I don't think there's a way I can replicate that or even put it across in words, to how much it makes me love this film. But I think if I can feel that, I think it's done a very good job. And that's why it deserves a win.
Adam Speakman:And I think that is a good ending point. I think that is fucking brilliant. Yeah, Treasure Planet is more than a win.
Ross Hartley:It's the definition of win.
Sam Coulduck:The definition of win.
Adam Speakman:So this has been win it or bin it this week. We've talked about Ocean Waves, Dragonball Z Lord Slug and Treasure Planet. Ocean Waves being a win. Dragonball Z Lord Slug going straight in the fucking bin. And Treasure Planet is more than a win. Thank you. See you next time.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:I was gonna go to things we liked about the film. Because I think even we were surprised......at the amount of praise this film received. 75 on Metacritic. 7.6 on IMDB, loads of glowing reviews. Why do we think the film works for so many people but it just left us feeling nauseous?
Sam Coulduck:That's a very good question. And I think it's because we've seen it all before. And to sum it...
Ross Hartley:I've seen it all before!!
Sam Coulduck:I've seen it all before!! Ah, there's nothing new in this fucking film. No.
Ross Hartley:I've got nothing left.
Sam Coulduck:There's nothing left in the Walt Disney vault. Mickey Mouse is turning out his pockets. He's just got nothing in his wallet. And he's like, Oh fuck, we need to send out a blockbuster. No.
Adam Speakman:That's Mickey Mouse's real voice. He gets home and he lights a fag. And he's just like, we've got nothing left in this fucking vault.
Sam Coulduck:There's a little kid that walks by. He's like, Hello ha ha. Hello I'm Mickey Mouse. Fuck sake. Fucking hell.
Ross Hartley:It is true though. What you said about, we've seen it all. Because once you see the Disney Nazi support cartoons they made in the 40s.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:You really have seen everything when you go in to watch Raya and the Last Dragon.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah. And predominantly, the thing is that everybody's seen it before. But for some people who watch this film, that's a good thing.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:People don't like to be challenged when they see things. The very fact that they kind of can guess how the story is going to unfold. And they know who's going to be trustworthy. And they know who's probably going to backstab the main characters. And they know that the animal is going to be cute and a bit dopey and he's going to like eating food. That's quite an appealing thing.
Adam Speakman:I was gonna say, it's funny how we always come back to this point. It's always a big point, the whole idea that people don't want anything too strenuous when they go to watch a movie.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah. And I'm not saying that a giant animal that likes eating food and is a bit dopey isn't strenuous. I think there's ways you can play with that, like we saw with Appa in the Airbender cartoon. With the whole arc where he's a trapped circus animal. Amazing, right?
Ross Hartley:Yeah, fantastic.
Sam Coulduck:Incredible to watch. Because they took an idea of a character that doesn't even speak, and they made it emotional.
Adam Speakman:I think that's where it draws the line here. There's loads of movies and animations now that have an animal in it that doesn't speak, and let's take How To Train Your Dragon. You know, the dragons don't speak in that. They don't say one word. And there's so much emotion in them. And especially Toothless. Toothless doesn't even really pull too many full on expressions, but you can feel everything that dragons going through. And it's great. It's fantastic. But......it's a bit of a shame, even when the dragon can speak in this, it still doesn't have the same impact as like you said, Appa who can't speak. That is a big problem. You know, you're supposed to have so much more connection with the dragon in this case, because you're getting the emotion, you're getting the speech. It's all there, it even transforms into a human, you know...
Ross Hartley:Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Speakman:So you're supposed to also have this section, were you sort of relating. You know? Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, that's a really good point. Because when you give an animal speaking part, you're given a free ticket there for the animal to express themselves in every conceivable way that we can understand. And it's so much more rewarding when you see that relationship developing in something like How to Train Your Dragon, when there isn't that capacity for expression in the dragon. And the barrier between Hiccup and Toothless is so much more rewarding to watch. Because Toothless will never really be able to understand what Hiccup is trying to tell him, but they have to trust each other anyway. And they have to get out of these situations relying on their intuition and how they've built their working relationship with each other. And they just have this intuitive knowledge between them both, that means they can succeed in whatever they're trying to do. Yeah. But in Raya and the Last Dragon you have a character that is really competition and headstrong anyway, like Raya, and it feels like Sisu is just a tumour clinging on and slowing her down.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:And they should have taken some pointers from How to Train Your Dragon in the way of building that relationship between the both of them. She could have still had a voice, but a dragon is not a human. So you've got to weigh those personalities against each other and figure out, how is this gonna challenge the way each of them do things? Where is the disconnect going to be between a dragon trying to understand a human and vice versa? But there wasn't any because Sisu was just a human. She just has a human brain. And it was like that.
Adam Speakman:Yeah. I was wondering how we were gonna connect How to Train Your Dragon and Raya and the Last Dragon. But yeah, I didn't even think about that, like the trust thing. Hiccup spends... Is it weeks or even a month? Just trying to get...
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:...Toothless to trust him just to touch his head. He then eventually makes something for Toothless doesn't he? To try and get his flight back. But then you learn that he has to actually trust Hiccup immensely, because he has to ride him to be able to fly. And that's the idea, isn't it? There's got to be trust there because they've both got to accomplish something like you said. And then you've got Raya who's been looking for this dragon. Literally going to every end of the streams that she was going to. She finally finds the dragon and then proceeds to not trust this dragon. She's supposed to be building trust. And she can't even trust the dragon. Do you remember the bit where they were in the city? And Sisu wants to come with Raya and Raya's like, no you need to stay here because you're important. And then Raya proceeds to take Tuk Tuk with her, with the thing they need the most, which is the gem pieces. She takes them with her into the town. Why didn't she leave the gem pieces with Sisu if they're both the most important things? Because Sisu can't do anything without the gems. And then she proceeds to take them into the town and they get stolen by the monkeys and the baby don't they? They get nicked. And you're just like, why have you fucking taken these precious gems that you need into town with you? And then you've asked Sisu to stay back because she's the most important thing. Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Two very idiotic characters doing things idiotically.
Sam Coulduck:Which is a real issue when your story doesn't go any deeper than a surface level understanding of world building. And...
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:...under the guise, that it's a kid's film, when it's actually, we need to tell a complete boilerplate story to get this on shelves to get people to buy it.
Ross Hartley:Yes.
Sam Coulduck:Speaking of, to go back to your original question about what we liked about this film. I think my high point of this entire sequence that you're mentioning here, where they go to the water city for the first time, is that chase sequence. I thought the movement and the animation of that chase sequence was really playful and fun.
Ross Hartley:Yeah. Yeah. It was good.
Sam Coulduck:I remember thinking, oh, I would have loved this even more if I was a child. And the music during that sequence really stood out. Because it was this really punchy, fast paced, oriental inspired, but almost modern and a little bit techno sounding track that......underscored everything and gave it a real energy. Which I thought was really cool. After that though, everything just blended into one.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, the film really had a hard time keeping up with itself. It was always tripping over itself to deliver all the plot on time, because there was so much. When you've got two hours to search for a dragon for 10 years, then unite all the clans of the world and bring all the pieces of a gem back together, it's gonna be rushed. It was just going at this crazy lightning pace and all these characters being introduced the whole way through the film. Yeah, so what I liked about it was... Like you said, the animation in most places was really silky and fluid, and it was fun to watch. And it reminds you just how good Disney's animation is.
Sam Coulduck:Yes!
Ross Hartley:It's on par with the best in the world. The designs were amazing. I think that's probably the thing I liked most about this film, the whole aesthetic it made for itself. This sort of Asian inspired Kingdom and the designs of all the different tribes. Although it felt a bit like planet of hats.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:When all the tribes wear purple or all the tribes have earrings and they wear yellow and they all have cats and it...
Sam Coulduck:They all like cats. Yeah.
Adam Speakman:I loved how baselined some of the colours were and then there was just this really bright purple clan, just out of nowhere. It was like, Jesus Christ!!
Ross Hartley:It was like, what is the significance of this? Great action set pieces as well.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:I think I liked the cooking segments. I thought the rendering and the animation in those were fucking amazing.
Ross Hartley:Yeah
Adam Speakman:Just watching them...
Ross Hartley:Top notch.
Adam Speakman:...plate these bowls of noodles. I was like, holy shit, this looks real. It looks fucking real. And then the water. The water was amazing.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, definitely more on the level of aesthetic instead of...
Adam Speakman:Substance?
Ross Hartley:...substance with this film, is where it shone.
Adam Speakman:I mean, it all comes down to... Yes, a child would watch this and think it's amazing. Because it looks great and it's an adventure. So the main characters in it are strong female leads. I think it's a great Disney Princess style movie. Essentially Raya is like a Mulan in a way. You know, how Mulan is supposed to be a certain way. But she's the Saviour and she's a really tough women's role model. And it's all down to her. And it's like Raya, they've made Raya, you know, she was trained by her Dad. And then she came out of her Dad's training and shadow in a way on her own. And then she saves her Dad. I don't quite know how well they've managed to pull off the whole trust thing. Because what are they essentially telling people? That you should put trust in someone you've met in five minutes? Is that what the idea of it is?
Ross Hartley:Yeah. They were trying to convey this message of, you shouldn't trust right away. But you should also trust people if you think they're capable of change. It was a mixed bag really.
Sam Coulduck:Quite a difficult thing to try and get across to a child, isn't it? I think that's why most kids films go with, you know, believe in yourself. Because...
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:...it's quite easy to believe in yourself. But it's a lot harder to explain why you can trust certain people, but you can't trust others in the same circumstances.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, I suppose that's why Frozen did so well. Because essentially it's all in Elsa's mind isn't it? She thinks that she's dangerous. So she isolates herself even though she's got good support around her, from her family. And then that's about trusting yourself, or what is that about?
Ross Hartley:I literally can't remember what happens in Frozen...
Adam Speakman:Point is, it must have been simpler than this. It must have been a simpler message...
Sam Coulduck:I feel like Frozen's message was about expressing your emotions and not bottling yourself up to the world. I mean, the main song is called let it go. Right?
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:It's about not being scared about who you are.
Adam Speakman:That's it. Yeah. Accept who you are.
Sam Coulduck:Accepting who you are for you are and your quirks and stuff like that.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, you can't change being this ice superhero. So just embrace it and save the world. Essentially.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah. Just go live in Barbados and wear oven gloves. You're not going to freeze anybody in the sub Sahara. Come on.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:The Atacama Desert where no water exsists for you to freeze. Going back to what we thought, because we were saying people don't like films that challenge them. I think Raya is picking up the Zeit Geist at the moment. Because I think it has been a very tumultuous year for a lot of people. And maybe this film is exactly what they wanted. It was just a very hopeful, inspiring adventure that had likeable characters and a wholesome message. I can see it taking everyone's minds off the horror that has been the last year and a bit.
Adam Speakman:Taking their minds off it by making a film that actually...
Sam Coulduck:Replacing it with something worse?
Adam Speakman:Well, no. It gives them a movie that actually... I mean now I'm looking at it those purple blob things, Coronavirus.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:The dragon gem is the vaccine and the Dragons represent the NHS.
Sam Coulduck:Oh my god. Adam, you just figured out the deep law of this film. You just cracked it completely.
Ross Hartley:And Sisu is Boris Johnson.
Adam Speakman:The dragons are AstraZeneca. They created the gem.
Ross Hartley:My brothers AstraZeneca, Pfizer and Oxford.
Sam Coulduck:We formulated this crystal in the lab.
Adam Speakman:Oh Jesus.
Sam Coulduck:Going back to what you said about the audience's getting challenged by the content that they watch.
Ross Hartley:Yes.
Sam Coulduck:What would you say you would want Raya to do, if you could do it differently yourself? How would you change this film to make it more challenging? What themes would you explore? What things would you take out to make it a more punchy experience? And I mean, obviously, ignoring the whole, water getting drained out of people horror.
Ross Hartley:Ahh come on?
Sam Coulduck:Well, let's say that's number one. What's number two?
Adam Speakman:I think that the thing they had to do was, each clan has to protect this gem. And then maybe Raya had been growing up with this young girl. And they were both being trained by her Dad, from different clans, obviously, to be the protectors of this gem. I think if they had done it in a way where every clan still had some sort of duty to protect this gem together. And then the reason that it smashed was because the clan of the girl that Raya had grew up with, her mom decided that she'd been wanting this gem for a while. And she somehow convinced her daughter to help her. And then she betrays Raya and then the gems get smashed. Or she just takes the gem or something. There just needed to be a way of connecting her and the girl up a bit more maybe?
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:I'm not 100% sure. But if all the clans were involved at the start and one clan decided to be greedy, that would make more sense.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:This was just like, there was one clan protecting this gem. So I suppose you would understand why other clans would want the gem. But...
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:...the betrayal would have hit harder if she'd somehow grew up with the other girl, I think.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, I was just thinking about that...
Sam Coulduck:Yeah, more character focused experience. Definitely.
Ross Hartley:Yeah. It could have been a lesson where the trust is broken down and then you have to build it back up again into a new relationship. And that relationship could have been with Raya and Sisu. I think there could have been a lot more desperate moments. Because it is a dystopian world where vast amounts of the population had just been turned to stone. So people should be clamouring in small groups, like in Death Stranding or something.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah like 28 days later? Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, 28 days later! Everyone's very wary of each other. They're very wary of trusting outsiders because they don't want to jeopardise their own existence. So I think that's all you had to do to make this film a bit more dramatic and to raise the stakes and make it a bit more thrilling to watch. Because otherwise, they walked into that water town and nothing was wrong. You wouldn't know there was a big purple goo turning everyone to stone on the other side of the wall.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, the only time those goo things came out was when they forced Sisu out of the perimeter of the city. But wouldn't you expect these things to be knocking at the wall constantly?
Ross Hartley:Yeah init. I know they can't go over water, which was like a fairly important point, I guess. But what's stopping them going over walls?
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:They don't have legs and it doesn't seem like they're bound by gravity.
Adam Speakman:No.
Sam Coulduck:I've just had a mad thought. This is the sort of world in which a firefighter would be the ultimate emergency service.
Ross Hartley:Oh yeah!
Sam Coulduck:Just someone with a hose pipe to just shoot a ghost for you, do you know what I mean? You'd think this world would naturally develop in a way that people who carried water and people that, you know, I mean, they did touch upon that, didn't they? They talked about how the Fang people had made a moat around their city.
Ross Hartley:Yes.
Sam Coulduck:That allowed them to enclose themselves in. That's the thing about this film, it does certain things that make you go, oh, that's interesting. And then it just stops short of you know...
Ross Hartley:Yep.
Sam Coulduck:...transcending into something more interesting beyond that.
Adam Speakman:Well that was the weird thing, wasn't it? Like you said, the water was supposed to be the deterrent of these things, but also the gem when you pointed it at them, shone a little bit? I know it's supposed to be they're undoing but if water is also a deterrent, then why doesn't everyone just focus on doing what the other clan did? Where they just put a moat around.
Sam Coulduck:And what happens when it rains?
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, that's a good point actually.
Sam Coulduck:Do they all just piss off for like two hours? And then people can relax a bit.
Ross Hartley:There could of been so many good...
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:...clutch scenarios, where just the addition of water would completely turn the tables. Like, they're being chased by the goo and they're catching up, and there's no cover or anything. And then they see some storm clouds. And they're like, we've got to make it to the storm clouds.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah, yeah.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, you've got to think about how you use the rules you've set up in the world to deliver satisfying punch lines to the dramatic moments.
Sam Coulduck:Definitely. Because I think people see them as restrictions, when they're really not. They're the toolkit, with which you can experiment with. Maybe you have to think about things a little bit longer. But you end up making a film that is intuitive to watch. Of course it makes sense that if it rains, these things are gonna get scared off. Or, you know, if you could figure out a way to transport water with you and use it as a weapon it would work or hundreds of different things. What happens when it snows?
Ross Hartley:Yeah, yeah!
Sam Coulduck:You could go wild with all the things that could come out of this film, but thankfully, Disney don't do that.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, now that you've mentioned this, the movie essentially, like you said, it is really lacklustre actually. Now I'm thinking a bit more now and it's made it even worse for me. All they do is travel on water constantly. And all they're doing is going city to city, to try and find a gem. And these purple Coronavirus things aren't even a problem throughout the whole journey. Even when they're at that guy's camp. You know, the big guys camp and they have a fight outside the gates. Where are the?...
Sam Coulduck:Yeah!
Adam Speakman:Shouldn't there be like purple things attacking them as well? I mean, surely they can't just openly be fine with fighting in this open area, especially outside of the gates of this guy's place.
Sam Coulduck:There is snow though.
Adam Speakman:I can't even remember.
Sam Coulduck:But the film doesn't attempt in any way to describe why there's no danger in this scene. It just goes. Ah shit, hopefully they've not realised that there's an inconsistency here.
Adam Speakman:Even if there was snow or something though, like Ross said, the sort of attitude that people would have in real life in this situation. People would be terrified about leaving boundaries. It'd be like a zombie movie. People will be enclosed somewhere and they'd be terrified. You'd have to send a team out just to get supplies and stuff. Luckily, in this world, they can they can transport things over water without any problems.
Ross Hartley:They should have made going outside the most dangerous thing you could possibly do.
Adam Speakman:Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? It's it's been 10 years released. And I assume they've covered half of the world or something into stone. And yet, when Raya is just travelling around the desert where you'd expect most of them to be, because it's perfect conditions. There's only one she bumps into. And there's no other ones. You would expect to see them roaming constantly.
Ross Hartley:They've made the droon purposely this weird nebulous, all encompassing existential threat. And it's not even existential because it only exists in certain pockets. And it should be everywhere. And it should affect every aspect of their lives, how they get food, whether they build moats around their cities. And how they've adapted in the 10 years since it was released.
Sam Coulduck:Especially in the desert.
Adam Speakman:Yeah. You would keep to the river wouldn't you? As close as possible. And then there would just be loads of them just going about because they've got nothing else to do. The only people who are left to turn to stone are in these cities. So you would expect them to be making the best effort possible to attack these cities to finish off the job. But they just seem to be scattered doing fuck all if I'm honest. Some of them were just by the sides of the river, just looking at the boats going past.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah. It's ill defined as well, in terms of their origins. I think Sisu says that they were a plague that was sent to fight humanity, or fight it's transgressions or something. Like it was like it was an emotional thing.
Ross Hartley:Oh, yeah. It was like the manifestation of distrust or something like that.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:In humans.
Sam Coulduck:Which, again, they made no bones about the fact that in a world where people weren't trusting each other, maybe that trusting would be the thing that defeated them. Rather than this magical object that could could just save the day like a battery in a TV remote.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, that sucked.
Sam Coulduck:That's how you do a strong theme.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:You link the bad guy to the thing you're trying to say.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, exactly. When trust could undo people, but it's also the thing that would unite everyone against this threat and and overcome it.
Adam Speakman:This specific talk we've just had. I think it's made the movie worse for me now. The idea that these monsters they put in to be monsters, didn't actually do much until the end when the water was gone and they were allowed to attack cities. But there was not any imminent danger really from them, until then. You weren't really terrified by them. I think if they've done it right and they had been constantly there, constantly being chased, never given space to breathe between cities. I think they would have been quite terrifying.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, the point of them was to make them terrifying. And then when they were just making people stone in the city, I didn't really care if I'm honest. I wasn't scared of them. I was sort of like, okay, these things have been let in. Yeah, it was even worse when I think of it now.
Ross Hartley:When you go into a film like this, you know exactly what's going to happen. And you know exactly how it's going to end. And because it's a Disney film, everything's fine at the end. But it's how you do everything in the middle, that makes the drama. Because it's a Disney film, it has to end with a happy ending, because that's what Disney do. That's their mission statement. So what happens in the middle? And a film that does this really well is Big Hero 6.
Adam Speakman:Oh, fucking brilliant film.
Ross Hartley:Yeah, where you have this intense tragedy, which is explored throughout the film. And by the end, you know this is gonna go well for the protagonist. But the amount of stuff and the amount of torment they've gone through is what makes the drama for that. And it was just completely missing from Raya.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Because everyone was turned to stone and you're like, okay, so getting the gem back is going to make everyone unstoned. And what else really happened?
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:And Sisu didn't die for real because she came back.
Adam Speakman:Yeah. And they didn't even explain that. It happened a lot. The fact that things just sort of worked out, but there wasn't actually much of a reason. I really do think if her dad had come back and he still had the injury, maybe he still died, I don't know, from the arrow wound or something. It would have been more hard hitting that he died and then she got carried off by the water and she's fighting for her dad's legacy of bringing the clans back together. But even then, Sisu came back, but there was no explanation for that. She just materialised. And then all the dragons came back for a random reason as well. I don't know why, but yeah, that happened.
Sam Coulduck:Specifically, her dad was such a weird addition at the end. Because the beginning of the film, before the time skip, is there to demonstrate that her father is an idealist. His plans were great and big, but they wouldn't actually work in practice. He couldn't get the peoples of these four different tribes to communicate and work together because of their greed and their own outside biases of the other clans. Which led them to destroy the crystal and doom the entire world. And that's sort of where Raya gets her optimism from, but she doesn't learn anything more when her dad returns back to life. Do you know what I mean? He doesn't come into the world and go, holy shit, you've done it. He's quite obviously a bit confused because, you know, the world had just been plunged into chaos. And now it's okay again.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:There was no meaning to his idealism. Only that it was how Raya understood it in her character. So at the end of the film, she could sort of punch him on the shoulder and be like, I told you so dad. I'm not a fuckwit.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Trust works. You know, as you said.
Adam Speakman:I fucked it up, but I fixed it.
Sam Coulduck:OHH GUESS WHAT TIME IT IS? IT'S TIME FOR THAT'S BULLSHIT! Has anyone got any manuka honey? Welcome back. It's time for that's bullshit. The game where I present Ross and Adam with two bits of film trivia to try and catch them out. One of which is complete truth, and the other one is complete bullshit. Adam and Ross, are we ready to play today?
Adam Speakman:Oh, I'm ready.
Ross Hartley:I'm bready.
Sam Coulduck:You're bready. You're ready. Okay. Fact number one. OJ Simpson, also known as the juice, was originally considered for the lead role in James Cameron's The Terminator.
Ross Hartley:Okay then.
Sam Coulduck:Fact number one once more. OJ Simpson, also known as the juice, was considered for the lead role in James Cameron's The Terminator.
Ross Hartley:Well, he is an effective murderer.
Sam Coulduck:Fact number two. To create the noises of the Brachiosaurus' in Jurassic Park, samples of cows and reptiles were mixed together in the final edit. To create the noises of the Brachiosaurus' in Jurassic Park samples of cows and reptiles were mixed together in the edit. I missed out the word audio there, otherwise it sounds a bit weird doesn't it? Just they stuck cows and reptiles together to make Brachiosaurus'. Anyway doesn't matter.
Adam Speakman:They selertape them together.
Ross Hartley:You said noises.
Sam Coulduck:You get the gist of it. Okay, so factor number one, OJ Simpson was considered as the Terminator. Fact number two, the Brachiosaurus' are made from audio recordings of cows and reptiles. Gentlemen, discuss.
Ross Hartley:I loved your addition of OJ Simpson, also known as the juice, like that was gonna affect our consideration in any way.
Sam Coulduck:Just thought I'd throw you off.
Adam Speakman:It's kind of a weird one this. Because in my eyes, the OJ Simpson thing would be completely out there. And the cows and the, what was the other thing?
Sam Coulduck:Cows and reptiles.
Adam Speakman:Yeah, the audio samples of them being mashed together for Jurassic Park seems like it's very plausible. But is it one of those things where the less plausible thing is actually true? I mean, it is James Cameron Right? I mean, he's a mad bastard.
Ross Hartley:He's not known for conventional film decisions.
Adam Speakman:This is the guy who got these blue aliens and decided that the way they procreate is by attaching these weird tube things that they also attached to animals, which is also very weird.
Sam Coulduck:They don't even wash them do they?
Adam Speakman:Don't wash them.
Sam Coulduck:They don't even dip them in a river, they just bang them straight in.
Ross Hartley:Those deviant art Smurfs.
Sam Coulduck:So Gentlemen, I will need a decision, which of the two facts is bullshit?
Adam Speakman:What are you thinking?
Ross Hartley:Yeah, like you said, it might be a case where the more implausible one is actually true. Because the Jurassic Park one seems fairly innocuous, but it could be very easily made up.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:I'm gonna say that the Jurassic Park fact is bullshit.
Adam Speakman:Oh god, okay.
Sam Coulduck:Adam, I'll need your final answer.
Adam Speakman:I'm gonna say that OJ Simpson playing the lead role in the Terminator is bullshit.
Sam Coulduck:Gentlemen, are they your final answers?
Adam Speakman:Yep.
Ross Hartley:Yes.
Sam Coulduck:Drumroll please. Editing magic. Saving this segment once again. I can confirm that fact two is bullshit.
Ross Hartley:Ah Yes.
Sam Coulduck:That is true Ross you have correctly identified the bullshit fact. They actually used donkey and whale noises to create the sounds of the Brachiosaurus' in Jurassic Park, which means that OJ Simpson was originally considered for the lead role in the Terminator film. Director James Cameron rejected the choice of OJ because he didn't think that this likeable, goofy and kind of innocent guy could pull off the role of an assassin.
Adam Speakman:Oh my god!
Sam Coulduck:In fairness, neither did the Los Angeles County Superior Court in 1995.
Ross Hartley:Oh fucking hell!
Sam Coulduck:So at the end of that's bullshit, that's 1 point to Ross this week for correctly identifying who can kill someone and who can't. And sadly no points to Adam. Better luck next time lads. That's been that's bullshit... So, to wrap up our discussion of Raya and the Last Dragon, I was just gonna ask you both. What do you think Disney are going to do in the future? Do you think they're still going to continue printing money with these films? These quite safe, well designed kids films. Or do you think they'll take another direction? And if they had to, what would cause them to do that?
Adam Speakman:I think one of the things that always pushes these things forward is the numerous people who instantly say this is a classic and are really easily pleased. They're what's driving this lacklustre animation from Disney. Although it does well for them. I'm sure they make an absolute fortune in franchise, merchandise and just the sales in general. Because kids love animation, and why shouldn't they? But to call this film an instant classic, like proper reviewers who have watched this. Let's not get this wrong. It's not kids who are like six, who are reviewing these things as instant classics. It's parents and actual reviewers who consider themselves somewhat of a film buff, I would imagine. Are you seriously telling me this is an instant classic? I mean, there's a person I saw on Twitter who had made a VHS cover of it, as if it was worthy of back in the day animation. It's just like, fucking hell, I just can't understand. But, yeah, the only way that this stuff keeps going on is these people who big Disney up as if it's something amazing. Whereas, Pixar who came out with Soul recently. I've heard that is an absolutely fucking brilliant film. And that's for all ages. So if Pixar can still hit their mark with animations that can appeal to both with a very deep meaning behind their animations. You know, I think Disney at this point are just playing it safe. And the more it works and the easier they can get it. Why not do it? I mean, this movie was all made from animators at home, right? Everyone was at home because of Coronavirus. So, I mean to produce something like this, from people making it at home. I mean, it's a feat. It's incredible.
Ross Hartley:It is incredible.
Adam Speakman:But the story isn't and fair enough that you're doing it for kids. And fair enough that you don't really need an explanation in their eyes. But I think you still need to produce things that challenge kids a little bit and give them something to think about. Because Pixar do it numerous times. But yeah, to finalise your question there Sam. Yeah, I think as long as people are bigging these movies up as if Disney are hitting new realms. I mean, some people were saying it was a new era for animation. It's like, that's not the case. Not even close. I think, as you said, they'll keep this format as long as it pleases the vast majority of people who watch these films. And the vast majority are kids and families and why wouldn't they enjoy it? It's a family orientated film, isn't it?
Sam Coulduck:How about you, Ross? What do you think?
Ross Hartley:Yeah. As an answer to, do you think Disney will continue to make this kind of film. Yeah, I think this method is working out for them quite well so far with the trilogy I guess they've had. Of Frozen, Moana and now Raya as the strong heroines with this facade of cultural diversity. But Disney only really doing it because they know it draws in a larger audience. I don't think they'll stop doing this until it's the straw that breaks the camel's back moment. Where they have an absolute stinker. Where it's something, I don't know. Something sitting slouched.
Sam Coulduck:The office but Disneyfied.
Ross Hartley:The office. Yeah. And they get a really poor turnout. And then I think they might start changing it up. But it seems like they're very quick to make. They're very easy to make. They please a lot of people.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:It's a very successful model. And I can see them doing it for as long as it works for them. But I think as well working with that model. There is a growing sort of cult of Disney, you might call it. Where, like you said Adam. People will just eat up whatever Disney puts on a plate in front of them.
Adam Speakman:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Regardless of its quality, even. It just seems to be people want a regular scheduled film each year that has basically the same elements, but with a slightly different twist and a slightly different flavour. And they are placated with that until Disney will give them something else, which they might never give them. It might just be endless iterations of the same thing. Like Pokemon. Except not as good.
Adam Speakman:I think it's interesting that the formats that previously worked for them were musicals. And this wasn't. Even Sam, there was a bit in it where we thought it was going to start singing because that was what it was turning into. You were like, if they start singing now, I don't want to watch this now. And they didn't. And it was interesting that. Because it was going that way. And that was how the format felt. It felt like, oh yes, there's gonna be a musical part in this. But there wasn't. Which was interesting.
Ross Hartley:Yeah. And even up until Moana. Moana was a musical. Frozen was a musical. Maybe they're trying to peel themselves away from the musical identity a lot of Disney films have. And just go for a more, not realistic, but not musical oriented story for these tentpole films.
Adam Speakman:I think that's where it might had done them in. I'll be honest with you, I think if there had been singing in it, I would have been like, oh right, okay, it's a musical for kids like Moana and Frozen. I think I would have got it straight off then. So, because that's how these sort of movies become massive is there's going to be one song that just completely blows up. And the movie becomes astronomically successful. And that, I thought was the model. And it was interesting when you said about if it's going to start singing now then bloody hell. And that's been the format. So the fact that they didn't with that, then yeah, okay, it's a bit of a change up. But I think ultimately the music that wasn't made on this was changed with the style of the dragon and adding loads of furry creatures and little monkeys and a little baby. They put so much marketable things in it to offset the fact that there's no musical numbers in it.
Ross Hartley:Hmm, yeah. What do you think Sam, to your own question?
Sam Coulduck:Now that you've just said that Adam, you've actually given me food for thought. Because what if this is Disney trying to change the record in their own way? What if they're trying to gradually step away from the musical kid friendly thing? And they're moving it into a much broader palette that can be marketed to a lot more different people.
Ross Hartley:Yeah.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:Because Adam, you just said, if they started singing, you said, ah I wouldn't want to watch this. But they made that choice to not make it a musical. And I think a lot more people probably enjoyed it because of that? I don't know.
Sam Coulduck:It's different for sure.
Adam Speakman:I mean Aladdin and the old Disney movies have songs in them and I like them. But I think for me, it would secure the format. I think it was Sam. Sam said, if they start singing now then...
Sam Coulduck:Because I was so scared. I mean, I had my worst fears confirmed that it was just a run of the mill Disney film. But if it had just started singing on top of that, that might have been it. I might have just quit out of the thing. It would have been too much. Okay, so after that rousing discussion about kids films and animation and Disney, I think we've all decided that Raya and the Lost Dragon is not the sort of film that a Cinebasterd should be watching.
Adam Speakman:The lost dragon.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah.
Ross Hartley:The lost Dragon.
Sam Coulduck:You know, if you're seven, if you're eight, I think it's probably a good little adventure flick. If you're a parent and your kids are driving up the wall, just stick it on and it'll will keep them occupied for two hours. But yeah, more shite from Disney as per.
Ross Hartley:And the wheel turns on and on.
Sam Coulduck:And the wheel keeps spinning.
Adam Speakman:On to the next.
Ross Hartley:Ha ha ha, I've been Raya and the last dragging my balls across your face, Ross Hartley.
Adam Speakman:If you don't think Tom Holland is the worst Spider Man. Fight me. My address is seven... terrace. What a wank Spider Man! Absolutely useless! Can't make his own fucking suit when Tobey Maguire can make...
Ross Hartley:I don't know, it's better just...
Sam Coulduck:Is he still going? Wrap it up? Okay yeah. I've been Mickey Mouse throwing up outisde a nightclub because he had too many Eccy's, I've been Sam Coulduck. Thank you for watching Cinebasterds.
Adam Speakman:...on numerous occasions, numerous times...
Ross Hartley:Is he erh? I think he's just going to carry on.
Sam Coulduck:Yeah, i think so yeah. Do you wanna?
Ross Hartley:Yeah let's...
Sam Coulduck:Should we leave him going?
Ross Hartley:Let's get out of here.
Sam Coulduck:Nice one, I'll see you in a month.
Ross Hartley:See you in a month.
Sam Coulduck:Bye.
Adam Speakman:...be spider man. I mean he's not even Spiderman anymore...